The Separatists' Nightmare, From Nationalism to Ethnicity, with the presence of Dr. Sadegh Zibakalam, Professor of Political Science at the University

Accusations of separatism and the collapse of the regime

Abdi Media: We stand on the edge of the razor on the narrow boundary between nationalism and ethnicism between integrity and breakdown, between the dream of the Great Iran and the nightmare of Iran.  We are now standing one of the most sensitive issues of contemporary Iranian history, from extremist nationalism to inflamed ethnicism, from the nightmare of Iran's Balkanization to the dream of decentralization and regional justice in the middle of this field full of our guest gunpowder.  In the past quarter, you were accused of supporting segregation and accusing the illusions about the fall of the system.  Are you accused of dualism more than ever before?

Zibaklam: Like sellers who advertise washing powder, let the consumer himself or badly recognize.  I was accused of defending Israel from the regime, which I mentioned in Qatar last year that they were not pleasant and filed for me that I had defined by Israel;  I consider the collapse of the system to be an illusion that has become very common, all those who raise the issue of the fall of the system have become popular, if they do not speak directly to the fall of the system, they will cross the system to sit down and come to the same story.  Crossing the system means that the system is not and the falling slowly expresses the words.  I believe that this system is not falling;  Since the late 1990s, the idea that the system was falling was created. In the 2009 protests, about two to three million protesters from the Revolution Square to the Freedom Square were seen, as far as I saw and had a complete presence in the protests, the smallest and least slogan against the Islamic Republic or the Islamic Republic.

The evolution of protest slogans from 2009 to 2012

Abdi Media: Radical slogans were raised in protests 

Zibaklam: The slogan "Reza Shah Happy Spirit and Reformist Slogan, Principle, Finance" for the first time in January 96 demonstrations. In November 98, massacres of gasoline were carried out.  There was no alternative and another approach, the issue of reinforcing the system and the lack of hope for the future of this system was not a matter of 2 on February 22, 1977.

Abdi Media: There were radical slogans in 88 against Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, especially after the protests were raised by radical slogans, but most of them were saying that we were saying a word of Imam Khomeini, the word Imam Khomeini was also bold. 

Elections and the contradiction of overthrowing with public participation

Zibaklam: In another form and with a sociological study we can show this, in the May 1396 elections 24 million voted for Mr. Rouhani and about 19 million to Mr. Raisi's rival candidate.  The people who voted for Mr. Rouhani on May 29, 2016, were Nuddi minutes at 4pm said that the beautiful Word of God cursed us. We also voted for Rouhani.  If one believes in the overthrow of the system and does not propose except for the overthrow of the alternative system, he will not be ridiculed for two or three hours in the ranks of Hosseinieh Ershad.  After the year 1396, the Ukrainian plane, and especially the arrow, fired a woman of freedom life, the slogan of overthrowing and crossing the system.

Explicit opposition to the subversion and its costs

From that point on, anyone who raised the issue of opposition to the subversion became condemned to the middle of the game, the confidence valve, the mercenary of the system, and so on, but since the late 1390 and early 1400, there was a situation where anyone would be condemned to the regime's overthrow, mercenary of the system;  Critics and protesters do not explicitly declare that they are opposed to subversion all try to dismiss the issue of subversion, regardless of whether they believe in subversion, but because they believe that I do not believe in subversion, they do not curse and curse in cyberspace.  I am opposed;  The argument is not that subversion is possible or not possible, my servant basically disagree with this system, but I do not agree, but I am totally disagree with that I believe in a creature in the name of democracy.  That is to say, such as curse, curse, death, mercenaries, middle open and valve.  I look at the World Cup if the system falls in Iran will not improve the state of democracy, but for the reasons I have for myself, the instability and chaos, the civil war, and so on, that there is no democracy.  Do they disagree with subversion?  Because they are afraid to become Ho, anyone who claims to oppose subversive becomes Hu.   

Intellectualism and the authenticity of expression;  Curse or popularity?

Abdi Media: You do not want to combine yourself with part of the major body of society and you are not willing at all when you think that your look is right to bring yourself to the major part of the community that may be different from you.

Zibaklam: Yes, I have said as rosary in your program and other programs that the intellectual who fears the government can understand him, but I don't love him very much he is afraid of the government, and because of his fear of the government, he does not say goodbye to the people, but the intellectual who is well -versed and enhanced by his identity.  I am inaccurate and wrong, but by God to this day, August 26, 1404, everything I said was as much as I believed, and many have protested to me to say these things, but I cannot say that I am not cursed or loved.

I knew I was not a child on Friday, June 23, I was not a child, I knew the tweet and the position in the early hours of Friday after the announcement of the commanders of Twitter, and I said how I could be with Netanyahu and Donald Trump.  The opposition will have the 80s, the 1970s, and so on, but I believed that if the US, Israel and any other country invaded Iran, we could not stand by the Islamic Republic, we must stand by the Islamic Republic that then the fight against the Islamic Republic is not an Islamic Republic.  I approve and I know what a heavy price is in public, but I believe it. 

Accusations of separatism and Zibakalam’s stance on Kurdistan

Abdi Medya: Let’s address your recent controversial statements. In a recent interview, critics interpreted your statements as supporting federalism autonomy. I read part of the text that the domestic media published about you. Some opponents of the regime also claimed that your statements smell of disintegration of the regime, any autonomy and political federalism of Iran that some of its neighbors are seeking to reduce and move towards disintegration. Your statements have been read in a separatist way, in a way that I saw on several different channels. Some domestic media have said that you, along with the separatists and Israel, stated that Kurdistan and Azerbaijan should become autonomous and form a local government. I have watched your interview several times, but I did not understand that you were defending separatism. Maybe you believe that Iran should be federalism or some other type. Because I am familiar with your discourse and statements, I did not have such an impression. You have a connection to the Kurds. Kurdistan has been intertwined with you since the beginning of the revolution. Perhaps you have a special connection to the Kurds. Even when the issue of a referendum in Iraqi Kurdistan was raised, you asked Ayatollah Sistani to use his influence and support this idea. None of the Iranian intellectuals have such a view of the Kurdistan issue. What is your feeling and equation with Kurdistan?

Zibakalam: Iran is not the only country that faces the issue of ethnicity and minority. I was a student in England about 20 years before and after the revolution. They have this problem. If we consider Ireland as an ethnicity, it has a problem with London. Britain is made up of England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland, which have had wars and conflicts throughout history. Scotland wanted to be independent. There is a Scottish nationalist group in England. And because of this, a few years ago, when the issue of joining or separating from the European Union was raised, the issue of Scotland and its being with England was raised again. A referendum was held and they said that every Scot who wanted to be apart from England should say yes, and every Scot who wanted to separate from England and become an independent country should vote for separation. About 64 percent said that they want to be with England and London. One percent raised the issue of separation and independence, and one percent abstained, and the issue was rejected.

I can completely understand why the majority of Scots said they did not want to secede from England because if you ask a Scot what you wanted today that London did not give you, they will not be able to say much other than what the Scottish people wanted and London did not give them. I mean, the issue of ethnicity exists in many other countries as well, which has caused wars and the division of countries. We remember the former Yugoslavia, which was divided into several other countries. In my youth and ignorance, I believed that socialism could solve the issue of ethnicity and minorities. Due to my attachment to socialism, the left, and the former Soviet Union, we believed that socialism could solve the issue of ethnicity and nationality. After the Islamic Revolution, I believed that Islam would solve the issue of ethnicity, but today I believe that Islam, socialism, and Marxism did not solve the issue of ethnicity and nationalities, only democracy has solved the issue of ethnicity. Instead of repression, London believes that it will hold a referendum. Why don't they want to secede? To ask a Scot what London has not given you, he has no answer. But if you ask a Kurd what his demands are that Tehran has given you, you cannot say even one thing that was not the demands of the Kurds and that Tehran has responded to. I do not say the Islamic Republic, because before the Islamic Republic, the imperial system did not respond to any of the demands and demands of the Kurds. Whenever the issue of ethnicity is raised, a group of people have taken up sticks and beaten the Kurds and other minorities in the head that you are separatists and they have raised the issue of death to separatists, unity in diversity, diversity in unity.

120 years ago, the Constitutional Revolution took place in Iran. The Constitutional Revolution was able to deal a significant blow to the Qajar rule. The Qajar ruled Iran for about 130 years. During these 130 years, the Qajars were able to maintain Iran's territorial integrity, unity, cohesion, and integrity. However, this Qajar power was broken as a result of the Constitutional Revolution. The result was that an ethnic separatist movement emerged in Kurdistan, Khuzestan, Azerbaijan, and...; Reza Shahi emerged, who by 1320 re-established unity and integrity, but the central power was broken again, the same Turk that had broken it during the Constitutional Revolution. The central power in Tehran had been weakened. This time, it happened in Shahrivar, 1320, and this time the Kurds did not say autonomy. This time, the Kurds declared the Republic of Kurdistan in Mahabad in 1324 and 1325, and Seyyed Jafar Pishevari and the Democratic Party, with the support of the Soviet Union, declared autonomy in Tabriz. The Kurdistan Republic, the crafts, and the Arab people were suppressed until 22 Bahman 1357. What happened this year was the same thing that happened in Shahrivar 1320 and the Constitutional Revolution. That event was that the power of the central government collapsed and Kurdistan was in trouble again. Kurdistan has been in trouble after the Constitutional Revolution and once after the fall of Reza Shah. Today, if a problem arises for the central government, we will have the same stories twice in Kurdistan. The question is very simple: during the time of Reza Shah and the Islamic Republic, only Tehran ruled Kurdistan by force. The question is not about separation and disintegration. The question is, if a Kurdish family wants their child to go to school in Kurdish, will Tehran accept this? The answer is no. This is the most basic civil right that minorities should have. In Iraq, Syria, Turkey, including Iran, the center only knows one language, which is the language of force and bayonets. I agree that Reza Shah Pahlavi had valuable services in Iran, but he chose the most repressive and violent person for the governorship of Azerbaijan and Kurdistan to suppress the slightest movement of Azeri and Kurdish non-socialism.

I believe that Islam and socialism have not solved the ethnic issue, but democracy has solved it. The ethnic issue has been solved in Switzerland. They do not move with tanks to suppress the Italian part because democracy is ruling. If a huge machine of Khoy and Mako carves a canal and a ditch between Kurdistan and Iran, the Kurds who are today digging the soil with their nails and filling the ditch so that there is no separation between Iran and the Kurds. Have we granted them the smallest civil rights they have demanded? No. In a democracy, it has happened that if the Italian-speaking part of Switzerland wants their child to attend a school where the language is Italian, they do not raise the issue of secession with a bayonet.

A local government should be formed that can make better decisions based on the facts, information, and knowledge it has about the current situation, so that one person from Tehran does not make decisions for Mahabad and Tabriz. By stating these things, they tell me that I am a separatist. In these 46 years since the Islamic Republic, there have been several governors, governors, and bank presidents for Kurdistan and West Azerbaijan who are Kurds. Whenever they raise these issues, they say that there should be meritocracy and a worthy person should be the governor and prefect in Mahabad. The reality is that we have not respected any of the civil rights demands of the Azeri, Kurdish, and Sunni minorities, and Tehran's only language is force.

Democracy; The solution is ethnicities, not federalism

Abdi Medya: Anyone who has formed a community anywhere, settled down, and has roots and civilization should have their rights recognized by the central government. You mentioned examples from Europe. Many cities, provinces, or cantons have their own languages. Some countries even recognize different dialects. The names of streets in some countries are in the script of that province. They also have their own flags. All of these things are under the flag of the main country. Once, Mohsen Rezaei proposed in the elections that he was seeking the formation of states and federalism. Regarding Sistan and Baluchestan, I remember that since you met with Mr. Molavi Abdul Hamid, you have a precise and deep understanding of the wishes of the people of Sistan. Do you think that they can have independence from the central government? You mean that they can influence their own destiny in the region, not separate themselves from the central government.

Zibakalam: When I say that there should be a school in Mahabad where if someone wants their child to be educated in Kurdish, they should have this right. In Sanandaj, Mahabad, Bukan, and Saqqez, the people should elect their own real representatives in coordination with Tehran and the central government to take steps towards the progress, advancement, and development of that region. By raising these issues, they say that they want them to be independent and autonomous. No, that's not the case. We want this people to enjoy the most basic human rights. We chant slogans about the unity and diversity of cultures, nationalities, and civilizations. In Iran, how beautiful Kurdish clothes are. This is the majority's propaganda. When we go through the propaganda, for example, the Azeris say that in Tabriz, the local government can use the Azeri language. Immediately, the issue of separation is raised. Of course, I can understand the problem of the Kurds and Turks. Why do the Kurds chant the slogan "Long live Kurdistan"? I understand the slogan "Yashasin Azerbaijan", why do stories happen in Tabriz when the Tractor team wins? My point to the Turks and Kurds is that what brings you good, happiness and progress is not the Kurdistan and Yashasin Azerbaijan, but democracy, Yashasin Democracy is the way to salvation. I believe that what is the healing and saving medicine for all of us is not Arabism, Kurdishism, Azeriism, Tehranism, etc. I can ask the Kurds and Azeris a question. You say that we do not enjoy democracy, but how much democracy do we enjoy in Tehran? The pain and problem of all of us is the lack of democracy. If democracy prevails in Iran, we should not have the slightest concern about Kurdistan, Tabriz and Azerbaijan and the Tractor team; when democracy does not prevail, we should be afraid of Azeris, Kurds and Arabs.

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Autonomy or local authorities

Abdi Medya: In your conversation with the word autonomy in the provinces, did you somehow defend autonomy or local authorities? What is your red line in this definition? You said that your strategy is not to move towards the experience of democracy. Do you have any concrete issues other than this?

Ziba Kalam: These are details and details that we need to negotiate about, the main issue of accepting this generality is whether if an Azerbaijani wants his child to attend a Turkish-language school in Tehran, is this accepted? Do we accept that the Kurdish language be spoken in Mahabad? Once we talk about federalism or autonomy and independence, I say that if it is a democracy, do not be afraid of the Kurds, Turks, the Arab ouster, Mawlawi Abdul Hamid, be sure that they will deal with prejudice in defending the land of Iran. There are several different religions in India. Why are the problems that exist in Iran not in India because democracy prevails in India.

Ethnicity or majority?

Abdi Medya: Someone is afraid that they do not recognize the rights of the nation. When we raise the issue of the Kurdish minority, I am against this word because each of them has formed a part of Iran, each of them is a minority of a majority called Iran, but I do not know what the interpretation is that we must say that they are a minority and then there must be a majority in front of them.

Mission in Mahabad; from accusation of mercenary to escape from execution

Ziba Kalam: In the field of democracy, during the era of Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi, there was no progress in Iran in the field of free elections, action based on the law, government accountability, free press, closing of Evin prison, etc. Therefore, when the revolution happened and the central power that had taken everyone under sixty since the coup of 1953 collapsed, it was the same after the collapse of the Soviet Union; Thirty years ago, the Soviet Union collapsed, and the problems still persist. Because democracy had not been established in that country when the Communist Party was in power, the issue of ethnicities had not been resolved. In Iran, Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi was also absolute. This issue had not been resolved. Two or three months after the revolution, widespread armed conflict began in Naqdeh, and the Kurds and Turks took up arms. In the Naqdeh War, a number of compatriots were killed and they fled to Mahabad. I was assigned by the provisional government to go to Mahabad and investigate the situation so that the Kurds could return to their homes. These refugee Kurds had become a propaganda tool against the Islamic Republic. In order to stop these actions, they cast lots in my name, poor thing, because I was working in the Deputy Prime Minister for Revolutionary Affairs, and the late Chamran was also the Deputy Prime Minister for Revolutionary Affairs. I left for Urmia to travel from Urmia to Mahabad. When I arrived in Urmia, I was unfamiliar with the area. A meeting was held in which the late Hassani, Jamshid Haqgo, the governor, and Bakari, the commander of the Urmia Corps, and Zuhairnejad, the commander of the gendarmerie, were present. The late Hassani asked me, "Young engineer, how do you want to go to Mahabad?" I said, "Just as I came to Urmia from Tehran, I will also go from Urmia to Mahabad." The late Hassani told me, "There was no one more inexperienced or younger than you who was sent from Tehran. You have not yet left Urmia. It is in the hands of the Kurds, the pro-democracy militia, the Democrat Party. How do you want to go to Mahabad?" Gradually, they got to know the Kurds, and finally I went to Mahabad. Mr. Zuhairnejad said, "We will provide a military escort by helicopter. I am from Khaniabad, so I will go by land." We set off with the same group that we had come from Tehran. Of course, I was terribly afraid. There, I realized that there was something called credit. I realized that Sanandaj, Mahabad, Piranshahr, and Oshnavieh were different from Kashan. I realized that a Kurd was different from a person from Qom or Tehran. I realized what kind of phenomenon we were facing. Because my mission was a week and ten days, it lasted 5-6 months. In the end, the hard-line Kurds of Komaleh, Ashraf Dehghan's supporters, and the Fadaei guerrillas said that this person was an agent of the Islamic Republic who was planning to identify the Kurdish fighting forces. In Tehran, Khalkhali considered me an agent of the Kurds because I had realized that there was a difference between a person from Mahabad, Shahroud, and Mashhad, and you cannot understand this until you have socialized with the Kurds. Many in Tehran were saying let's let security be established and then we will do development and construction like a bulldozer. I believed that the issue of language, religion, etc. was important. At that time, they told me you are a mercenary and we are working with the Democrats. Khalkhali officially announced in the parliament that this person is a mercenary of the Democrats because I was telling Khalkhali that Sanandaj is different from Semnan. Both cities are for Iran, but the earth is different from the sky. You have to understand these issues and how you should behave. I was saved from Khalkhali's execution because of my mother's prayers. If they had executed me, they would later claim that I was a servant and agent of America. Khalkhali would have become a hero by hitting me. I was miraculously saved from Khalkhali's hands.

Kurdistan during the "Women, Life, Freedom" era

During the "Women, Life, Freedom" era, they called for a general strike on Tuesday and Wednesday. In Tehran, shops were open or half-open; But in Bukan, Saqqez, Sanandaj, Mahabad, shops were closed during strikes, why was the struggle in those cities serious? I lived with the Kurds for months and I have noticed their challenges and problems. I had started negotiations with the Democratic Party, we were supposed to release the prisoners, the Democratic Party and the Pashto-Mortals had arrested a number of military personnel, the problem was that in Tehran Khalkhali was branding me a mercenary, in Mahabad Komaleh and Hosseini and Ashraf Dehghan and Guerik Fadaei Khalq and Massoud Rajoui They branded me a traitor, but in this situation, I was advancing negotiations with the democratic body and more realistic political forces of the Kurds, and I believe with all my heart that we could have achieved some progress in the negotiations.

The end of the negotiations with the intervention of Chamran and others

Abdi Medya: The negotiations were stopped

Ziba Kalam: Then Sahavi, the late Forouhor, Chamran, Sabaghian came and I realized that Chamran did not intend to cooperate with this delegation. The late Chamran told me that because this delegation was appointed by the Imam, I cannot say frankly that I will not cooperate with this delegation. You have a duty to cooperate with this delegation. I went to Sahavi, who was planning to take charge of the budget issues of Kurdistan. I went to Dariush Forouhor. He very respectfully showed me the exit door. Because there was a lot of talk behind my back, the Kurds and the hard-line centrists did not accept me. I saw from the very beginning that they were going wrong, and a few months later, Ayatollah Khomeini contacted me and said that he would send Mr. Ishraqi to Kurdistan. This The delegation responsible for Kurdistan apparently made no progress in their work and requested the presence of Mr. Eshraqi and me. We boarded a plane with Mr. Eshraqi and traveled to Urmia and Mahabad. I observed Forouhor talking to the Fadaei Khalq guerrillas, Komaleh, and Hosseini. I only talked to the Democratic Party because I understood that this party had power and roots. I did not have any talks with Sheikh Az-Din Hosseini, Komaleh, or the Workers' Party. The Fadaei Khalq guerrillas sent messages many times and asked for negotiations. I believed that it was possible to negotiate with them in Tehran as well. I only had talks with the Kurdistan Democratic Party. I had made it clear to Tehran, the government, and the Supreme National Security Council that we only had to negotiate with the Kurdistan Party because they could provide security for the region. The IRGC and the army could not provide security, and the story of the Shah’s time would be repeated. We could come to terms with this party and the security of the region would be established. I emphasized over and over again why were you afraid? What’s wrong with a Kurd working in the gendarmerie and the police? Don’t be afraid to hire these people. The Democratic Party pays 600-700 Tomans a month. We will pay for these salaries. They will serve in the police wearing Kurdish uniforms. I believe that if the revolution happened on 22 Bahman 1357, our problem with Kurdistan was 13, now it is 7 and 6. The distrust of Tehran among the Kurds has increased significantly since 22 Bahman 1357.

In 1358, the Kurds had a shred of hope for Tehran and Ayatollah Khomeini. In 2018, I received a call from Kurdistan and Sanandaj and they said that they were holding a ceremony for law trainees. They invited Ebrahim Asgharzadeh and I to attend the ceremony and give a speech. I spoke about the importance of the law and Asgharzadeh about the challenges of the Kolbari. In the evening, they told us that Kurdish friends wanted to meet with you. We gladly accepted and at 8 pm, we went to meet these Kurdish friends at a nobleman's house in Sanandaj. We gathered together. Journalists, members of the Sixth Parliament, writers, intellectual elites of Kurdistan, etc. were present at this meeting and said that we have known you since 1979. It is now 2018. Forty years have passed since we met. We believe that there are hands within the Islamic Republic's government in Tehran who do not want Kurdistan to develop and progress. I looked at them in astonishment. They mentioned several cases. A gentleman who had intended to establish a large poultry farm in Mahabad or Sanandaj but had not succeeded was a Kurdish capitalist who lived in France and Saudi Arabia. Another person had planned to build a multi-star hotel in Mahabad, but he also failed after many attempts. They believed that these cases showed that Tehran did not want development and progress to occur in Kurdistan, that Tehran wanted Kurdistan to remain poor and backward, because now the elites in Mahabad, Sanandaj and Oshnavieh do not stay, but migrate to Tehran and Karaj, Erbil, the Kurdistan Region or abroad, and that the only people left in this city are the kolbars, pasur sellers, whiskey sellers and smugglers. Thank goodness for 1979, when there was no distorted thinking and negative thinking about Tehran. After thirty years, instead of progress, we regressed. In 1958, none of the Kurds raised these issues in our negotiations. My only feeling was that we regressed and went backwards in relation to Kurdistan. The feeling that the Kurds had towards Tehran in 1979 was better than the feeling they have now.

Abdi Medya: One of my sweetest trips in Iran was to the Bukan, Sardasht, and Baneh regions, from the hospitality and delicious food to sitting at their feet. The ridiculous belief was that the Kurds were

Ziba Kalam: I am ashamed to say this, but one of the reasons why Khalkhali, Zuhairinejad, and Hassani believed that I was the agent of the Kurds was how Ziba Kalam could be present among the Kurds without a weapon. They had not yet understood that an armed Kurd would not shoot an unarmed person. I did not have any discussions with Sheikh Azeddin Hosseini, I had a couple of respectful conversations.

Abdi Medya: It is not surprising to you when I see that one of the reasons for Abbas Amir Entezam's conviction was that the US ambassador told him, "Dear Abbas Amir Entezam, as is customary in English conversations, 'So you are a devotee of America and a spy. He has been in prison for years. You are lucky. The same mother's prayers were behind you.'"

Ziba Kalam: They were clearly announcing how you are present every month in the hearts of the Kurds and in a region that is full of gunmen and murderers, and they have nothing to do with you. Although I had a political problem with Sheikh Azeddin Hosseini, I respectfully pray behind Sheikh Azeddin in the prayers of the Mahabad Grand Mosque.

Full file of Abdi Media's conversation with Dr. Sadegh Zibakalam, professor of political science at the university