National demand referendum? With the presence of Dr. Mahdi Zakerian, professor of international relations at the university.

Scientific independence of academics

Abdi Media: What do you think about the idea of ​​a referendum?  Not as a plan that has a political leader enclosed in the general sense of the referendum, why has it not been repeated in the post -referendum of 58 Islamic Republic? 

Zakarian: All academics are expected to have their own scientific independence and freedom, university professor should not be a model of servitude, obedience, servitude and loyalty to the superiors, the model of a university professor must be Socrates, when Socrates would say the truth in the Shokran Cup.  The university became the first martyr of science and free thinking. 

All over the world, all those who teach at the university and are at the academy have learned from Socrates, Plato and Aristotle to have their own scientific view, even though they do not fit some, the mass society and different countries may not accept some of the unseen and inappropriate views. 

Ayatollah Mustafa Mohaghegh Damad, a professor at Shahid Beheshti University and the grandson of Ayatollah Haeri Yazdi, has written a book called Holy Gulf, so this is a necessity for universities, not only in universities, but government and political managers have entered the university and are cooking.  The people whose names are in history are great masters who resisted the truth of a society to express the truth.  Academics have no right to blame the people because we have research and we know more than the masses, we must respect the people, and it is for us to blame us to make all our efforts to inform the masses and form a wise civil society in Iranian society. 

The role of referendum in different communities

Abdi Media: I believe many university professors are following the same path.  What is your general view of my referendum in the field of the Islamic Republic? 

Zakarian: The referendum has been discussed in numerous societies, in some countries the referendum is used to solve problems, decision -making, public policy and the country's main issues, in some countries, such as Switzerland, even for smaller issues.  There is a few things or the choice between the two whether to do it or not to do so, in this case they will go to the public votes. 

Staying in the European Union or leaving the European Union in the UK did so, the government and the political system and many active civil systems in the UK believed that staying in the European Union was in the British interest, but the people's vote was to leave the EU. 

Referendum tradition in Iran

In Switzerland, because of the high national wealth and a high currency fund, I was held to be divided among the people, instead of staying in the fund, to give you ourselves to be deposited in your personal account?  The Swiss people voted in a negative vote, and they preferred the rulers and managers to spend the money on the development and progress of Switzerland, and people opposed the subsidy.  In the area where we live, the referendum is neither a political tradition nor a cultural tradition in Iran's political sociology. It is a prominent indicator that our society is a royal, patriarchal society.  Is the school good or bad?  What is the system of duty?  Reza Shah promotes the principles of development by order.  This was the case at the time of the Shah.  At the time of Qajar, which was essentially the people's opinion, because the clergy were close to the court and confirmed the king's clergy, and the shadow of the king was sacred, and the Shah himself, which had a special sanctity, was the same before the ancient history. 

There is a kind of Platonic view in Iran, there is no Aristotelian view, in the Platonic view of a Shah's philosopher, so in such circumstances there is no talk of referendum in Iranian history. 

Mir Hossein Mousavi's Proposal and Its Feasibility

Abdi Media: Recently, Mr. Mousavi put forward an idea and plan. How feasible do you think a referendum is in Iran today?

Zakarian: The proposal that Mr. Engineer Mousavi expressed stems from his concern for the current and future situation of Iran. I believe he is a patriotic, brave person with a clean record for the Iranian people. When he learned about the conditions of the Iranian people during the siege, he resorted to a phenomenon that is not a political tradition in Iranian history, except in several stages. In the White Revolution, the Shah held a referendum that recognized the right of women to vote, followed the discussion of land reforms, paid attention to the discussion of public freedom, and discussed the division of lands. The point that was raised at that time was on April 12, 1979, and the vote given to the constitution and constitutional amendments, which is considered a kind of referendum, decisions were made upstream and its advantages and disadvantages were defined by the same people who held the referendum, and then it was dictated to the people to vote yes or no; while when the Treaty of ??? is put to the vote, there is no influence from rulers who are interested in a positive or negative vote, it is completely impartial, people with a political tradition of referendum are aware and informed about the issue. Norway voted against the European Union in this vote and did not join the European Union, or Switzerland did the same. After the Maassericht Treaty, several countries voted to join. Norway and Switzerland did not accept this accession. In the Islamic Republic, it was announced that the Islamic Republic, whether or not the religious authority presents such an issue to the masses, will have a clear result in the referendum, or it was the same during the Shah's time. Regarding the constitution, if someone did not vote for the constitution, they could not even be a presidential candidate. Naturally, Massoud Rajavi was eliminated from the race. The referendum that was being held was different from the referendum that is the political tradition of advanced countries. The idea that Engineer Mousavi has in mind is the type of referendum that is the political tradition of advanced countries. I believe that he wrote such a text after consulting with lawyers or by studying the law, which is far from the political tradition of Iran and is closer to the political tradition of advanced countries. What kind of government and future do the people of Iran basically envision and ultimately reach a conclusion that if it leads to a constitution or a political system, ultimately the people themselves, if they want to change the political system at any time, this is how he explained the principles of the referendum. This is my understanding, and it may be wrong.

The Idea of ​​the Constituent Assembly in Mousavi’s View

Abdi Medya: The issue of forming a Constituent Assembly was raised in Engineer Mousavi’s statement. When the proposal of the Constituent Assembly is raised, it is supposed to be a transition from the Islamic Republic. It is an idea that does not agree with the current situation and is not in pursuit of revolution or street uprisings, but rather a non-violent action. What role does the Constituent Assembly play? What does Mr. Mousavi mean by the Constituent Assembly and what is its function?

Zakarian: First, a referendum should be held, and then the Constituent Assembly is formed.

Abdi Medya: Does that mean that the referendum takes precedence over the formation of the Constituent Assembly?

Zakarian: What follows from Mr. Mohandes’ proposal is that the people should be asked for their opinion. After the opinion is taken, whether this system is there or not, then a Constituent Assembly should be formed. The Constituent Assembly should formulate rules and regulations, and the result should be submitted to a referendum or the people’s opinion. The political society of Iran is a royal society. Political activists should learn from political science or the history of Iranian political and social studies. Activists should not lag behind society. Activists should understand society well. Proposing a referendum is a given. If you want to hold a referendum, what will be the result? If you poll the people, you will see a very high level of dissatisfaction with the current situation. People who believe there is no dissatisfaction should hold a referendum. This issue is very clear and obvious because we have struggled with issues such as corruption, rent, non-meritorious appointments, international sanctions, international isolation, poverty, addiction, unemployment, inflation, divorce, etc. Sometimes I think that this country is the country of the Imam of the Time and God is paying attention to the country. We have not collapsed. Of course, we have practically collapsed, but the society is alive and breathing.

The nature of Iranians is different from other countries in the Middle East. Iranians have experienced the Constitutional Revolution. Before the Ottomans entered constitutionalism, Iranians experienced changes equivalent to those in Russia and Japan. Then, with the global system, students were sent to other countries or to advanced countries since the time of Abbas Mirza. About 10 million Iranians live outside Iran. Their families are in Iran. Therefore, Iranians are in contact with the world. A fish in a glass of water knows that there is an ocean in the world that does not allow this fish to experience the joy of life in the ocean. We must consider the issue as a crisis.

Abdi Medya: Do you think that if a referendum is held, the type of government should be put to a referendum first? Can a conclusion be reached on the issue of the type of government?

Zakarian: My understanding of Mr. Engineer Mousavi’s words is that it is not very consistent with the demands of the Iranian people. I think the referendum debate is a kind of insult to the Iranian people. People have already moved on from this issue. It is to provide a reason and evidence for those who believe that Mr. Engineer’s opinion is wrong. Don’t spend the referendum money. Tell the people what kind of constitution you need for your future.

Abdi Medya: There is a type of government that is the Islamic Republic in the current situation. Do you believe that the formal expression of the Islamic Republic can respond to the people’s demands and demands? Do you believe that the Islamic Republic can be put to a referendum in that idea? This issue is raised by the supporters of the monarchy, who say that the type of government should be put to a referendum from the beginning or that ultimately the law will determine what to do.

Zakarian: If something is done legally, what is correct and consistent with tolerance and the principles of fundamental rights is that the first thing to ask is whether you accept this current action or not? Is the Islamic Republic acceptable to you? If the majority of the people believe that it is acceptable, you should continue based on the current constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran, unless the people want reforms. The question could be whether the Islamic Republic needs reforms or not? For example, the Guardian Council should be removed from the appointment mode and reduce its strictness. Some reformists have some issues to consider. But let's assume that in this initial referendum there are negative opinions towards the Islamic Republic, in that case we should enter the next stage of the referendum, what kind of government is preferred? Is this a republican government? Is this a constitutional government? Is this a parliamentary government?

Abdi Madia: Different structures are common in the world

Zakarian: After this stage, a Constituent Assembly should be formed that will draft the Constituent Assembly's constitution based on the structure accepted by the majority. Then the constitution will be put to a vote. We should proceed step by step and phase by phase. Iranian society is completely different. We see the experience of 2015 as a royal-centered society in which the role of the leader is emphasized. Therefore, many of the steps we mentioned are not visible at all or are based on revolution. The issue that occurred in 2015 could be based on an incident, such as a coup that occurred in some countries, or it could be based on foreign intervention, as the experience of this issue is evident in Nazi Germany, Japan, and Saddam's Iraq. Legally, it is normal for a political system to believe that it is facing a crisis and go through the steps. Otherwise, it is not possible at all. The Islamic Republic does not accept such a thing, it is clear.

Who is responsible for the discussion of royal-centeredness and leading this protest movement or protesters? Therefore, the referendum steps are not visible in a much shorter time. It quickly moves on to choosing the type of government, and the formation of the Constituent Assembly and the ratification of the constitution occur.

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Iran’s Crises and the Need for Rethinking

Abdi Medya: Given the historical experience in writing the constitution, what lessons can this historical experience of the Assembly of Experts of the Constitution of 1978 have? Today, when we look at the constitution of that time, what lessons can we learn?

Zakarian: The constitution is a constitution that pays attention to the rights of the nation in one part and public freedom in other parts, but since the nature of the revolution has an ideological nature and is heavily influenced by the ideological system, therefore, a phenomenon called the authority of the jurist and the method of accountability are different from the constitutions of other countries, I can see this point. After all, if we want to learn from the constitution, just writing a modern and advanced democratic constitution cannot be the criterion for the success of a political system. It is said that the best constitution in the world belongs to the Soviet Union, but what happened in practice? The people of the Soviet Union had the worst living conditions. They were a backward country that eventually collapsed. Therefore, we must consider this issue. The constitution is an important and basic document that we must pay attention to. What the constitution of the Islamic Republic had was freedom of the press, social freedom, women's rights, and the environment. You see, by observing this constitution, the Islamic Republic could have been a successful political system that would not be the subject of a referendum, and could have achieved achievements for the people that would be admired in the world. Is the state of Israel a Jewish state or not? The ideological foundations in this state are not weak, but the level of satisfaction for Jewish citizens inside the lands of Israel is high. The constitution does not have a basic law. The translation of the constitution is not an accurate translation. Similarly, the experience of the constitutional revolution was the constitution, which was a significant constitution in its time. The problem that exists in the countries of the region is to what extent the rule of law exists? In Britain, the prime minister must be held accountable if he commits a violation. It is not a long-term power. In Germany, a parliament with ten percent of the votes is not possible. We should not have an idealistic view of the phenomenon of writing a constitution. The Constitution of the Soviet Union did not come to fruition. If there is hope from the people or academics that Iran's problems will be solved by changing the political system and constitution, this is a wrong view. We need simultaneous multilateral changes and developments. Political culture, political economy, mafia economy must change. Foreign relations should not be a tense relationship. It should be peaceful and based on good neighborliness with all countries. It should not be a governance that is harmful to the nation. It should be for the governance of national interests. All these things should be included in the law. I see the Reza Shah model as a worn-out, backward, diseased society with a very bad legacy and in the process of collapse. There was a constitution, but there was no comprehensive management that required all the issues and necessities of development from society. Since society is royal-centered, even the clergy should accept this requirement. If it were not for the leadership of the late Imam, the situation would have been very difficult. The charisma he had and the authority he used were influential in the victory of the revolution. The current leadership is also aware of these points. It tries to exert ultimate authority in issues and discussions to organize decision-making, otherwise power is plural; coordination of the executive branch, the legislative branch, representatives, the military, the constituency, etc. People who so easily raise talk about a referendum should take this past experience into account and then think about the future.

The Future of Referendums and the Type of Government

Abdi Medya: Is there a social and political context necessary to hold a referendum in the current conditions of Iran? The people are very eager, but will the government agree to hold a referendum? No other institution can hold a referendum except the government. What guarantee is there for accepting a referendum that the current government is holding about itself? Who should hold a referendum that is legitimate in the eyes of society?

Zakarian: No political system that is confident that its future may be threatened or changed based on that referendum will agree to a referendum unless it is confident that the referendum will lead to its own consolidation. If it is going to lead to its own consolidation, it will hold such a referendum that the very idea of ​​discussing a referendum is wrong. People who raise these issues hope that changes will occur. If there is certainty of change, the political system will not give in to this issue. It is a kind of dream unless the political conditions of the country are intertwined in international and domestic issues. In such circumstances, if the political system behaves wisely, it will turn to the public to save itself and, through compromise, cede power.

Abdi Medya: The plan that Mr. Mousavi and some civil political activists have put forward. How do you think this referendum idea should be implemented? How should it be carried out?

Zakarian: Individuals and their type of authority are important. You emphasize that the idea itself is important.

Abdi Medya: You are raising the issue of leadership.

Zakarian: Yes. You and I used to talk at the university and we put forward the truth from the perspective of political science and law. This idea is important. The idea of ​​establishing the Constituent Assembly.

Abdi Medya: In society, it is important who puts forward this idea.

Zakirian: In the June 2nd elections, we may say wrongly that the Iranian people are fascinated by Iranian society, the dialogue of civilizations, political science, and de-escalation. The same people who were fascinated by the theoretical foundations of international relations, politics, and law were fascinated by them and then voted for Mr. Khatami. This is wrong. Many people voted for Mr. Khatami on June 2nd because he was a Sadat. As a professor of human rights, I must state what exists in society. When we claim that constitutionalism is brought up by some monarchists, it is an influential leader. When Mr. Engineer Mousavi raises an issue, it is important. We must take the impact and feedback of these issues in Iranian society seriously for the future of Iranian politics. He may have other issues in mind that he can raise, even if they conflict with the idea. It will be answered in society. Iran's historical memory is strengthened. The 12-day war is immediately compared to the 8-year war, in which not a single inch of land was lost. In 12 days, the air highway between Tehran and Tel Aviv was opened, while we did not lose a single inch in 8 years. Corruption was also limited. The dollar did not increase daily, even though it was an all-out war. The Iraq-Iran war was not a war. Foreign countries had helped Iraq with 80 billion dollars. We had prisoners from several countries. The Palestinian guerrillas, whose rights we defend, fought in the imposed war against Iranian fighters for the benefit of the Baath Party. These issues are effective on a person who was the prime minister during the war. When he puts forward an idea, this idea becomes attractive.

Abdi Medya: The traditional body that saw and knew him trusts him.

Zakirian: Both the traditional body and the new generation that has not seen him. Have some of the constitutionalists who are teenagers and young people experienced the Shah's era? But they are hoping to repeat the Shah's era socially or culturally.

Abdi Medya: There are different examples in the world. Basically, when it comes to changing the Islamic Republic or reforms, different interpretations are used. In the radical case, it is said that the Americans or Israelis are looking for the Libyan model for Iran. Some consider different models. In a conversation with Mr. Al-Vairi, he believed that they were proposing the Spanish and South African models, which are models for today's Iran.

Zakirian: I don't believe it because Spain is in the European continent. If we draw a circle, the center point of the circle is Paris, and democracy also spreads, then Switzerland, Britain, and... Spain is in that region. If a country wants to progress, check the situation of its neighbors. Which region are we in? In the east of Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan are located. You see authoritarianism in this region. Therefore, if we say that the Spanish model is implemented in Iran, you must have the political sociology of Iran, which is royal-centered. In a residential apartment, the opinion of the majority is respected. A general assembly is held and the opinion of the majority is signed. Yet, some people violate the rules of the same building. How can the transition from authoritarianism to the current Franco and Spanish society be institutionalized in Iranian society? I am not saying that this cannot be done, we need practice and time. The Islamic Republic has not given this practice to the people. The Islamic Republic could have held numerous referendums since the beginning of the Islamic Republic and in this way prepared the people for democracy, but it did not do this. It could have consulted the people after the conquest of Khorramshahr whether to continue punishing the aggressor or consider a ceasefire and negotiations and receiving compensation, but it did not do this. There was no consultation regarding the resolution, relations with the United States, the JCPOA, and changes to some laws such as the hijab. It could even have taken symbolic measures such as changing the Iranian national anthem so that the people would be ready to accept democracy and progress towards democracy, but this was not done either. At first, the anthem of the Islamic Republic was the anthem It was a revolution that replaced this current national anthem. They could have put this issue to a referendum so that people would get used to democracy and majority voting. When a society does not have this experience, how can it be involved in a process of change or democratic transition with the model of Spain or South Africa? In Iranian society, it is difficult to answer these issues and we must consider them.

The Role of Civil Society

Abdi Medya: We talked about historical examples, let's go back to the internal capacity of our country. How much capacity do you think civil society has? What role does civil society play in this process?

Zakarian: Civil society consists of parties, student groups, academic associations, interest groups, unions, non-governmental organizations, etc. They have demands that will lead to the progress of the country, the welfare of the people, and the provision of the national interests of Iranians. To say what role civil society plays, I believe it remains in the years 1376 to 1380. Let's not forget that from 1384 to today, Iranian civil society has been destroyed, civil society does not exist, Iranian civil society has been destroyed and damaged. If we speak kindly, we should say that it has been damaged, in other words, destroyed. Is it possible for the people of a country to experience two wars, be under sanctions and isolation from 1387 to 1404, see frequent political and social protests in the country, and clashes lead to widespread arrests and killings? You claim that we have a civil society? The condition of civil society is acceptance and tolerance. You have turned society away from tolerance. Society is nervous. We must state clearly that the middle class has become the lower middle class or the poor of society. You should not expect tolerance from this society. The condition of civil society is tolerance and acceptance of the majority opinion and respect for others, not attention to personal interests, but attention to the interests of the country. This society is tired and is not ready to accept hardship. It wants to get everything immediately. Managers in society get everything without any effort. Economic convicts form banks and tweet and are active while their convictions were announced by the country's judicial system. I see a very weak civil society. We see political activists who have been left out of power, who have no power, are seeking to hold a referendum so that society can change so that they can get power again. Engineer Mousavi, who proposed the referendum, is a pure and pious person. It is possible that in his mind and heart, the pursuit of power is sweet. For all of us, such a feeling of joy may come to us to receive more wealth or power. What has been seen from this person in general is purity and action away from corruption and hypocrisy. Therefore, apart from him, who makes an exception, I am not optimistic about other activists. We must approach this issue conservatively.

Abdi Media: A deep distrust has formed that even the idea of ​​a revolutionary is viewed with skepticism. I think this is the masterpiece of the security and intelligence institutions of the Islamic Republic, which have very carefully designed this path that this event has taken place. If a referendum is held, how do you, as a university professor, predict Iran for the next ten years?

Zakarian: It depends on the outcome of the referendum.

Problems of Education and Capacity of Iranian Society

Abdi Medya: If we reach a democratic system or a real democracy, we do not know whether this system is democratic or not. We should write this in golden ink that if the constitution was implemented well, the Islamic Republic would not have faced a crisis. The way the constitution is implemented is important. Do you think Iranian society is capable of implementing a more progressive constitution than the current constitution? Does society have the capacity to do this?

Zakarian: Regarding society and society, I must have this personal and scientific opinion and point out that we are far from being able to continue education, awareness, recognition and experience. What are children taught in schools after the Islamic Revolution? What are students taught in universities? Universities are destroyed, what level are the students at? It is better to assess the current situation. When Dr. Homayoun Elahi was working as the director of the department at the university, it was impossible for an illiterate person to become a doctoral student. If an illiterate person had entered that course by chance, he would not have passed the comprehensive exam and would have been eliminated because the scientific criteria were strict. But now everyone graduates and publicly announces that they will give us a score of 20, which does not require a comprehensive exam. Using the word university is not appropriate. The university has become a place that gives people degrees. Education has not taught the basics of tolerance, development, and the principles of democracy. In these circumstances, expecting civil society to be a good executor of the constitution is out of the question. Who is the leader or chief? The situation at the beginning of Reza Khan's era is a country where the law did not prevail, there was theft and insecurity. Now we are also facing these cases. A convicted person is free, it is said that he is doing clean economic activities, the media announces these cases. Or a person who advises people to be pious, his family members have cases in land transfers and such issues. A person who is unable to manage his own house calls the society to be pious. The leadership of the authoritarian Farhush, which has been an Iranian tradition? We need a team of specialists, young and energetic experts who are familiar with several international languages ​​and have experience in dozens of professional and scientific centers, dominant defense forces that have high security and defense training that can ensure the economic, political, cultural security of the society. Is this provided by democracy in Iran? In Iran, it takes time because the necessary training has not been done, they must be aware, and the first awareness is to tell the society that a large part of them who have fake certificates do not know anything. I must tell this bitter truth. Representatives, general managers, deputy ministers, Friday imams, business owners, students, etc. have certificates but are not familiar with the Iranian constitution and Aristotle's book Politics.

Abdi Medya: How much do the group that has read these things believe?

Zakarian: I asked several times in my doctoral class how many people have read the Quran and Nahjul Balagha in full. Maybe ten percent of the class did not answer in the affirmative. I also asked one or two questions about what the 53rd letter of Imam Ali was about. The management of Iranian society is not based on democracy, but on people whose competence and merit have been proven for Iranian society. In the field of medical management, it has been proven to everyone. In the diplomatic field, the late Dr. ??? It was clear to everyone that he was the highest and most outstanding diplomat of Iran, who was a unique person in the history of Iran. Or in the history of Iranian political and social developments, Dr. Sheikh Javad al-Islam, or in personality studies, Dr. Abbas Milani, in political sociology, Dr. Hossein Rashid, or in other issues, those who are experts in this field, who know the world and know the experience of various countries.

The long road to reform and leadership

Abdi Medya: Is it a long road or a short one?

Zakarian: We have a long road ahead of us. According to Mr. Mousavi's suggestion, the formation of the Constituent Assembly requires time, education, and serious authoritative leadership, because in a society where corruption becomes a habit and practice, reforming society is a difficult and complex process.

The allegation of the phenomenon of bribery is raised about some employees of the traffic police force. They gave advice to one of the people who was in contact with the police force, saying that this is how we should deal with such a corrupt phenomenon. His first response was this. He said that when law enforcement students enter society, the first feedback they receive from their contact with society is the offer of bribes; When you enter the police station, this shows that we have a long process ahead of us. This claim was made by someone who was in the police force. He was a righteous and masterful person who narrated these issues to me. We have also observed these issues by observing that people do such things. Society must practice. It is not right to expect this society to participate in policymaking and governance in such a situation; a team selected with piety, not based on gangs, ethnoclanism, and nepotism, should govern society solely on the basis of merit, ability, and capability of the constitution.

Conclusion and conditions for success

Abdi Madia: Final point

Zakirian: What should be considered is the provision of all civil, political, economic, social, environmental, cultural, development, etc. rights in a balanced manner, and this is currently incomplete in the constitution of the Islamic Republic. If in the future the Iranian people decide to amend the constitution, if all these things are completely and better compared to the constitution of the Islamic Republic Iran should prepare. The condition for success is that clean, pious, powerful, and law-abiding executives are placed in power so that the nation can observe and experience such laws in action.

Full file of Abdi Media's conversation with Dr. Mehdi Zakarian, Professor of International Relations at the University